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 [GUIDE] Comprehensive Epoch Guide

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CapeMike
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PostSubject: Re: [GUIDE] Comprehensive Epoch Guide   Fri Jul 29, 2011 8:17 pm

In addition to what Firekiller mentioned, Pulsardio's EMP missle's exceptional lock-on range has the side benefit of painting targets for teammate's radars very early on open maps...sometimes, I'll just sweep my reticule around, lock on to whatever I can, and start calling targets as fast as I can.... Smile

...now if I just had the new Sigma variant to test drive.... <_<
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PostSubject: Re: [GUIDE] Comprehensive Epoch Guide   Fri Jul 29, 2011 8:34 pm

@Iseal wrote:
Can a Garula AM with max range tunes and a range circle reach the PS on an Encircled map from the eastern island/pillar? Would be interesting if it could. On a similar note, sitting a Crim-chan or other chibis with a Burst Fire circle on the SW pillar on an Encircled map gives a major advantage to offense. Buffs at any time, and your breakers are harder to kill due to the chibi kiss.

Go with LBR/ Thoarla AM3, Toybox/Snailbot core *should* reach it though.

Too bad the maps aren't available to test this, and actual epochs are too precious to waste derping.

I'm assuming that all guard stacks with other buffs? Hasn't paid attention, but it at least stacks with CV.
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PostSubject: Re: [GUIDE] Comprehensive Epoch Guide   Fri Jul 29, 2011 8:37 pm

I haven't seen anything that can erase it yet. The reason I was asking about Garula AM is because they're decent at breaking a PS. If Thoarla AM3 can hit it with range boost, Garula should be able to. I think Garula also has 350 range.
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PostSubject: Re: [GUIDE] Comprehensive Epoch Guide   Fri Jul 29, 2011 8:39 pm

Epoch is quite frustrating when you see a crowd of people fighting somewhere what isn't a PS or giant shroom, no matter which side your on. Cause you know either A) Your PS is about to get rolled or B) Your team is getting distracted and your going to lose cause the PS isn't going down. *votekick team*

Anywho, solutions, not problems right?

**Offense**
Shotties are good for PS breaking but with how much most people depend on AIRs, I've seen several rushes get crushed in seconds because they depended all on one tactic, especially this.

Alternate builds:
Alpha Strike Hoppers - These are my personal favorites. Your an annoying distracting hard to kill target while doing decent damage to the PS. If they are trying to take you down, thats great cause they probably not concentrating on those that are doing a lot more damage like...

Long Range Alpha Strikers - Several PS's have nice spots you can hit them from far away. If you can sneak an ART OR a more survivable land with long range weapons (Railgun, rifles, missles, ext.) there you can do some good damage, especially if you have hyper shot and worst case scenerio you pull several people away from the PS to try to stop you.

Support - NO HEALING. Just in case you missed what Suguri has said several times. This is a path of failure. HOWEVER, that doesn't mean supports aren't worthwhile. Giving Long Rangers Alpha Strikers hyper shot, long range(and ammo maybe?), cloaking, kiss guarding shotties, winberrl am's to pull defenders from the PS or people attacking your Long Rangers, Bugsycait AM for knocking out the melees, setting up tough pillbox walls, distracting sniper turrets, gumming up their spawn area. But remember your job is EXACTLY what your title is... Support, and at best case your buffing the attackers so they take down the PS faster or have longer to do it, worst case scenerio again your a distraction giving them longer to do it again. If some start chasing you, you're doing it right... run away and get them get really pulled off. You only need a couple supports though so if you see several supports already out there, don't pick it. You should have a max of one of them in your bots.

AIRS - Not very efficient at taking down a PS, however their very distracting and great for finishing off an almost dead PS due to how annoying they are to take down fast enough.

Lastly, watch and look at the map a lot, espcially AIRs. If you see an empty area of the map around a PS you should be there pestering if not taking it down. Several times I've seen fighting massed at one PS and have taken down an abandoned PS solo with not much trouble. Unless you spawn with a good size group or someone is saying the PS is almost dead, pestering rejoining defenders or other PS's is much more helpful rather then trying to join the glory of 20 guys mualing one PS.

Also cheap bots are good. The more their attacking you and killing cheaper bots the more chances you have of getting their PS down before your own BP is dead.

**Defense**

Healers - First of all, you should never be healing bots. If they happen to be at the PS your repairing, fine. I've learned this lesson the hard way. If you "safe" heal away from your PS your only helping the other team distracting your own cause they want a better score FTL.

Support/Melees- Pulsario, Squidol (Girl), Burners, Bugsycait, Winberrl, Lagkun, Hound Dog Extreme these characters are great for breaking rushes the more you pull off and disarm the better chance your team can pick off the attackers before they can turbo crush your PS. Annoy them, pull them away, do anything to keep them from concentrating on the PS. Fetch items and give them out to defenders or set up the defenses.

Alpha Strikers - Kill scary targets as of 2 seconds ago. Concentrate on those actually attacking the PS. Don't wound, finish off anyone in your range, the more you spread your damage the more time your giving them to break your PS. Take out hippos.

AIRs - This is like a scout or spy in TF2 on defense... near worthless. AIRs are very safe killers, but not very fast and offense needs to be dead ASAP. However, on the big shroom levels they can fetch the power items. In fact, letting offense get all these will most likely end up as a loss, just make sure you maintain ample defense on the PS. They can mildly be used for scouting and pestering but really a Broad Radar is 200 times more useful and good epoch players are smart enough not to bother with an AIR when a PS needs breaking. I haven't tried making an alpha striker AIR but if there is a good build you may be semi useful landing on cliffs and killing rushing LNDs... maybe?

Chokepoints - eh? I've rarely seen this work. In levels that have decent choke points typically there is multiple PS's and the ones that rush past you(which will happen) will have one half dead before you can react. Worse people will chase these, splitting your "ambush" force and since pretty much their WHOLE force is there... your just gonna get wiped with little success. Best you can do is try to agree on prefered targets and try to take them out so they lose key PS breakers. It only takes a few to break a PS so distraction for defense is only minimally sucessful a better set-up defense is a lot more effective. Now fighting just outside the PS isn't too bad because smart players won't kill you they'll rush past and you'll have to catch up to them to protect a PS. But having a layer of defense outside the PS means you can get called in easy and can make it easier to split up the offense and reinforce when people die. The more they attack like a stream rather then a mass group the easier time you'll have.

Also to re-itterate, when you bot dies in defense it only does a FRACTION of it's cost to your BP. Feel free to use big expensive bots of destruction, keeping your PS alive is an easy win for defense, but even if it goes you still have a chance if you shread their bots fast enough. Offense will never win if it doesn't break PS(s).

Don't get me wrong you can force other tactics to work, but when there is much easier solutions why shove a square block in a round hole?


Last edited by Dracatis on Fri Jul 29, 2011 9:20 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: [GUIDE] Comprehensive Epoch Guide   Fri Jul 29, 2011 8:58 pm

With multiple PS maps, the chokepoint strategy only works if you can find an area that they have to pass through to get ANY access to the PSs. I should probably have put more emphasis on "more time to shoot at them" than "they can't pass through here". The more time you have to shoot at the enemy before they can shoot at your PS, the less damage they'll be able to do before they die. You're not gonna pull your entire force all the way across the map, leaving your PS undefended. It's just more useful to split your team rather than having 30 fat ARTs blocking each others projectiles, while a single Seraph whittles down the PS and humiliates you.

AIRs are best on the side PSs on Defense Lines, and for pressuring the PS on Encircleds. On the tunnel map, you're just flying a tiny bit over the enemy due to the flight ceiling, and on the mushroom maps, the ARTs have the high ground around the PS.

Tip for turret bits: If you cancel the bit before it dies, you retain your WB guage. Usually, this means you just go shoot someone a few times and your bit is back at full HP.

Offense tips: Go maim the Defense team. I mean that quite literally. Tear off their AMs, HDs, and just leave them alive and useless. Make their team farm for Part Restores, or have them jump into incoming fire to respawn. Break the Broad Radar user's HD, stop the ART with all the guns from killing your team. The Defense team has to kill players to win; Offense only has to kill the PS.
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PostSubject: Re: [GUIDE] Comprehensive Epoch Guide   Fri Jul 29, 2011 9:55 pm

@Iseal wrote:
Can a Garula AM with max range tunes and a range circle reach the PS on an Encircled map from the eastern island/pillar? Would be interesting if it could. On a similar note, sitting a Crim-chan or other chibis with a Burst Fire circle on the SW pillar on an Encircled map gives a major advantage to offense. Buffs at any time, and your breakers are harder to kill due to the chibi kiss.
Not sure if it can. 85% sure Toybox cruise missiles can though.

And even if you could lock on with garula am from that far away, you wouldn't even know if it's the PS you're hitting. When you fire off those two cruise missiles, as long as they blow up somewhere near the PS they're probably damaging it (pretty heavily, too).
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PostSubject: Re: [GUIDE] Comprehensive Epoch Guide   Fri Jul 29, 2011 9:59 pm

@Suguri wrote:
@Iseal wrote:
Can a Garula AM with max range tunes and a range circle reach the PS on an Encircled map from the eastern island/pillar? Would be interesting if it could. On a similar note, sitting a Crim-chan or other chibis with a Burst Fire circle on the SW pillar on an Encircled map gives a major advantage to offense. Buffs at any time, and your breakers are harder to kill due to the chibi kiss.
Not sure if it can. 85% sure Toybox cruise missiles can though.

And even if you could lock on with garula am from that far away, you wouldn't even know if it's the PS you're hitting. When you fire off those two cruise missiles, as long as they blow up somewhere near the PS they're probably damaging it (pretty heavily, too).

Nope. it won't.

and Chibi kisses barely help (if they do at all)
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PostSubject: Re: [GUIDE] Comprehensive Epoch Guide   Fri Jul 29, 2011 10:02 pm

@Nisa wrote:

and Chibi kisses barely help (if they do at all)
All-guard is an extra +50% blast reduction, 30% melee, 25% beam, and 10% shell on top of whatever reductions you may already have. How is that not huge?
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PostSubject: Re: [GUIDE] Comprehensive Epoch Guide   Fri Jul 29, 2011 10:23 pm

@Suguri wrote:
@Nisa wrote:

and Chibi kisses barely help (if they do at all)
All-guard is an extra +50% blast reduction, 30% melee, 25% beam, and 10% shell on top of whatever reductions you may already have. How is that not huge?

All guard is especially huge for an air breaker, since it essentially nullifies the art advantage and allows you to live that much longer.
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PostSubject: Re: [GUIDE] Comprehensive Epoch Guide   Sat Jul 30, 2011 3:47 pm

Hurr-Durr strategy : Get CS-Chan. Blow yourself. Note that despite the derpiness of it, if used well, you CAN score a win for your team. When you manage to clear an entire defender group as well as making a huge dent in the HP of the PS, do NOT underestimate a CS randomly coming out.
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PostSubject: Re: [GUIDE] Comprehensive Epoch Guide   Sat Jul 30, 2011 4:00 pm

@Shikaze wrote:
Hurr-Durr strategy : Get CS-Chan. Blow yourself. Note that despite the derpiness of it, if used well, you CAN score a win for your team. When you manage to clear an entire defender group as well as making a huge dent in the HP of the PS, do NOT underestimate a CS randomly coming out.

Assuming any player on your team has a CS to randomly jihad on the PS. This is not a reliable strategy.

@Iseal wrote:
With multiple PS maps, the chokepoint strategy only works if you can find an area that they have to pass through to get ANY access to the PSs. I should probably have put more emphasis on "more time to shoot at them" than "they can't pass through here". The more time you have to shoot at the enemy before they can shoot at your PS, the less damage they'll be able to do before they die. You're not gonna pull your entire force all the way across the map, leaving your PS undefended. It's just more useful to split your team rather than having 30 fat ARTs blocking each others projectiles, while a single Seraph whittles down the PS and humiliates you.

No, you won't pull your entire force over. However, the other PS defenders are likely to send players to shore up the PS under attack, leaving the others more lightly defended. In that case, splitting into multiple assault groups and hitting multiple PSes can help to cause confusion as well as splitting the enemy lines down the middle, as Defense will have to split players between two PSes under attack(don't ever hit all three at once. This divides your lines down the middle and does not force the enemy to split their defenses) to keep both adequately defended, leaving the final PS even more lightly defended. Then, striking there will cause more confusion and dysfunction as defense will try to defend all three at once.
Overall, their defenses will be split in three parts, each inadequate to defending from your well-organized assault, allowing your teams to smash their light defenses and quickly break each PS.

@Iseal wrote:

Offense tips: Go maim the Defense team. I mean that quite literally. Tear off their AMs, HDs, and just leave them alive and useless. Make their team farm for Part Restores, or have them jump into incoming fire to respawn. Break the Broad Radar user's HD, stop the ART with all the guns from killing your team. The Defense team has to kill players to win; Offense only has to kill the PS.

Not reliable. The chance of mutilating an enemy bot is very small with gunfire and only slightly higher with strong melee, and any smart player will commit suicide once their bot's been mauled, so they can respawn with a fresh bot. Not to mention respawn time for players on both sides is zero seconds, and you're likely going to kill your target before you maim it.
Overall that's a waste of time, Offense simply needs distractors to occupy defenders while their breakers descend on the target.


Last edited by FireKiller87 on Sat Jul 30, 2011 4:08 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: [GUIDE] Comprehensive Epoch Guide   Sat Jul 30, 2011 4:03 pm

@Shikaze wrote:
Hurr-Durr strategy : Get CS-Chan. Blow yourself. Note that despite the derpiness of it, if used well, you CAN score a win for your team. When you manage to clear an entire defender group as well as making a huge dent in the HP of the PS, do NOT underestimate a CS randomly coming out.

Since CS does damage in a large quantity in 1 blow, it won't get TGH reduced, as long as you're the first one there on your team, you should do close to 100 on the PS and lnd/art/sups with 40 tec, and around 200 on airs. Her interna is 100% blast by the way.

And don't expect to see her either, smart CS would probably be camouflage bit up.
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PostSubject: Re: [GUIDE] Comprehensive Epoch Guide   Sat Jul 30, 2011 4:11 pm

@knyx wrote:
@Shikaze wrote:
Hurr-Durr strategy : Get CS-Chan. Blow yourself. Note that despite the derpiness of it, if used well, you CAN score a win for your team. When you manage to clear an entire defender group as well as making a huge dent in the HP of the PS, do NOT underestimate a CS randomly coming out.

Since CS does damage in a large quantity in 1 blow, it won't get TGH reduced, as long as you're the first one there on your team, you should do close to 100 on the PS and lnd/art/sups with 40 tec, and around 200 on airs. Her interna is 100% blast by the way.

And don't expect to see her either, smart CS would probably be camouflage bit up.
Couple problems:

1)The camo bit is visible, vigilant players will spot the bit and destroy it. However a lot of idiots who play epoch can't do that.
2)CS suicide takes a few seconds to charge. If spotted/revealed, she can be easily killed by heavy direct fire.
3)According to the current metagame, teamwork is a no-show. There's no point sacrificing yourself if your team is not ready to immediately follow up on the explosion with a quick breaker's assault, which 95% of the time is usually the case with your Epoch team.

Other than that, yes, she can hurt defense A LOT.
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PostSubject: Re: [GUIDE] Comprehensive Epoch Guide   Sat Jul 30, 2011 5:13 pm

teleport her in with a prerunning explosion

to the long range attacking idea: i have a 536 range breaker rifle in testing right now for sniping purposes, its hard to hit even just slightly moving targets but a powerspot is usually not hard to hit at all (yes just 4 less range then toybox cruisemissles with 2 eiw)

i could try it out sometime soon in epoch, but my bot would need someone to clear that hill first since its just that crappy ^^
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PostSubject: Re: [GUIDE] Comprehensive Epoch Guide   Sat Jul 30, 2011 5:38 pm

Like I said, "chokepoint" was just the best word I could find. I was just trying to encourage people to stop waiting under the PS and only attacking when the Offense team had already farmed/set up and started shooting the PS. There's no point in not fighting until they rush the PS. Breaking AM/HD isn't a priority, just don't shoot stuff that has broken parts unless you have to. Sorry if I didn't make it clear, it was really late at night.

Can't you just use the little picture above the enemy HP bar to tell what you have locked on?
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PostSubject: Re: [GUIDE] Comprehensive Epoch Guide   Sun Jul 31, 2011 12:11 am

Had a wild Epoch battle earlier...Wiz on defense and for awhile it was back and forth....

Drove Brd back before they finally punched through and got our PS, leaving the score at something like 1100 - 12000...amazingly, we held on and scraped out a win with several of their airs looking like they'd simply ran outta ammo!

...course, I was EMP missle-ing anything not on our side that moved. Twisted Evil

Looked like we were done for, but managed to re-group JUST in time!



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PostSubject: Re: [GUIDE] Comprehensive Epoch Guide   Sun Jul 31, 2011 7:45 am

Suguri, Linear Cannon is a VERY GREAT wep in defence. I only play in defence side in epoch so I know how useful it is.

First, AIR is main bots used in break PS.
Second, LC does BLAST damage, which can do 90+ damage easily to air.
Third, LC's bullet can PIERCE, which means your shots will not be block by your teammates.
Finally, due to the high damage, LC can STUN-DROPS air a lots. There are some maps that have same structure that has only 1 PS on a very high hill, once u drop an air, it has to draw back to gain altitude to able to attack again.

For the tactic, hold a certain direction and only shoot those airs that come in your direction, once they are out of your field, leave them be and continue to do the job rather then chase them, unless there are no airs to shoot and your ps is in trouble bc your teammates can't handle those airs by themselves. Concentrate in your job, do like professional.

I demand at least 3 LC user at a time, holding the front, right and left of a PS.

Also one last thing:
Spoiler:
 

Sorry for my bad English.
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PostSubject: Re: [GUIDE] Comprehensive Epoch Guide   Sun Jul 31, 2011 8:11 am

I'm crazy, and mad. I use melee in both offense and defense, but mostly defense because I rarely get into offense.
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PostSubject: Re: [GUIDE] Comprehensive Epoch Guide   Sun Jul 31, 2011 4:13 pm

@CapeMike wrote:
Had a wild Epoch battle earlier...Wiz on defense and for awhile it was back and forth....

Drove Brd back before they finally punched through and got our PS, leaving the score at something like 1100 - 12000...amazingly, we held on and scraped out a win with several of their airs looking like they'd simply ran outta ammo!

...course, I was EMP missle-ing anything not on our side that moved. Twisted Evil

Looked like we were done for, but managed to re-group JUST in time!




That's the kind of teamwork that the community needs more of. Nothing else can get you back from the brink of defeat.
Also tells you how effective a good Pulsardio user is at neutralizing enemy Artillery.
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PostSubject: Re: [GUIDE] Comprehensive Epoch Guide   Sun Jul 31, 2011 4:34 pm

How Booby plays Epoch.
-By UncleBobbie-


1. Stay back as to not cause even more lag.
2. Stay back as to not cause even more lag.
3. Notice Epoch is almost over
4. Do a last-minute charge at the powerspot, because you want some fun too. >:
5. D/C because of lag and have wasted some more time of your live.


Fin~
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PostSubject: Re: [GUIDE] Comprehensive Epoch Guide   Sun Jul 31, 2011 4:35 pm

@UncleBobbie wrote:
How Booby plays Epoch.
-By UncleBobbie-


1. Stay back as to not cause even more lag.
2. Stay back as to not cause even more lag.
3. Notice Epoch is almost over
4. Do a last-minute charge at the powerspot, because you want some fun too. >:
5. D/C because of lag and have wasted some more time of your live.


Fin~
alt+x
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PostSubject: Re: [GUIDE] Comprehensive Epoch Guide   Sun Jul 31, 2011 9:57 pm

People seem to have the funny idea that baltheon or in fact, ANY defense/barrier/tank bot should somehow neutralize offense breaker completely...

No, your role as a tank is to WORK WITH OTHERS to "BUY TIME" for your ally to kill the breaker, not absolute defense.

2 baltheons are usually enough to buy enough time to kill 2-3 breakers (at the same time)on NA epoch... if those 2-3 breakers are in sync, it would be a ton more difficult, while more baltheons can buy more time.
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PostSubject: Re: [GUIDE] Comprehensive Epoch Guide   Sun Jul 31, 2011 10:11 pm

@fhoeng wrote:
People seem to have the funny idea that baltheon or in fact, ANY defense/barrier/tank bot should somehow neutralize offense breaker completely...

No, your role as a tank is to WORK WITH OTHERS to "BUY TIME" for your ally to kill the breaker, not absolute defense.

2 baltheons are usually enough to buy enough time to kill 2-3 breakers (at the same time)on NA epoch... if those 2-3 breakers are in sync, it would be a ton more difficult, while more baltheons can buy more time.
A baltheon shield is 300~350 HP (forgot which) and has no tgh reduction. A breaker can left+right click once (not even holding the buttons down) and pop the shield, and still have several bullets flying.

They can offer protection against non-breaker builds, and they work well for protecting priority targets other than the PS (i.e. Melfi). Any baltheon that jumps in front and tries to be the primary shield will meet a swift and painful death though (which is why aigis's frontal shield is more useful for epoch imo).
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PostSubject: Re: [GUIDE] Comprehensive Epoch Guide   Sun Jul 31, 2011 10:30 pm

@Suguri wrote:
@fhoeng wrote:
People seem to have the funny idea that baltheon or in fact, ANY defense/barrier/tank bot should somehow neutralize offense breaker completely...

No, your role as a tank is to WORK WITH OTHERS to "BUY TIME" for your ally to kill the breaker, not absolute defense.

2 baltheons are usually enough to buy enough time to kill 2-3 breakers (at the same time)on NA epoch... if those 2-3 breakers are in sync, it would be a ton more difficult, while more baltheons can buy more time.
A baltheon shield is 300~350 HP (forgot which) and has no tgh reduction. A breaker can left+right click once (not even holding the buttons down) and pop the shield, and still have several bullets flying.

They can offer protection against non-breaker builds, and they work well for protecting priority targets other than the PS (i.e. Melfi). Any baltheon that jumps in front and tries to be the primary shield will meet a swift and painful death though (which is why aigis's frontal shield is more useful for epoch imo).

That one shot is plenty enough to get the breaker killed. Against a decent defense team, you have no shot to waste as a breaker.

You are talking from experience of "when baltheon didn't work" and usually that happen when the defense team is already incompetent in epoch. Baltheon isn't a magic unit where you can solo defend a single PS all by your self, and that's my point.

When baltheon work, even if they do die by using their body to block the bullets, they have done their job well. Offense death is a a lot more painful, and a breaker's death is FAR more painful than a death of a baltheon.

Also, I don't believe baltheon shield is HP based, but by number of hits; 24 blast bazooka hits according to jp wiki. However, it was never really thorough tested by myself.
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PostSubject: Re: [GUIDE] Comprehensive Epoch Guide   Sun Jul 31, 2011 10:35 pm

@fhoeng wrote:
@Suguri wrote:
@fhoeng wrote:
People seem to have the funny idea that baltheon or in fact, ANY defense/barrier/tank bot should somehow neutralize offense breaker completely...

No, your role as a tank is to WORK WITH OTHERS to "BUY TIME" for your ally to kill the breaker, not absolute defense.

2 baltheons are usually enough to buy enough time to kill 2-3 breakers (at the same time)on NA epoch... if those 2-3 breakers are in sync, it would be a ton more difficult, while more baltheons can buy more time.
A baltheon shield is 300~350 HP (forgot which) and has no tgh reduction. A breaker can left+right click once (not even holding the buttons down) and pop the shield, and still have several bullets flying.

They can offer protection against non-breaker builds, and they work well for protecting priority targets other than the PS (i.e. Melfi). Any baltheon that jumps in front and tries to be the primary shield will meet a swift and painful death though (which is why aigis's frontal shield is more useful for epoch imo).

That one shot is plenty enough to get the breaker killed. Against a decent defense team, you have no shot to waste as a breaker.

You are talking from experience of "when baltheon didn't work" and usually that happen when the defense team is already incompetent in epoch. Baltheon isn't a magic unit where you can solo defend a single PS all by your self, and that's my point.

When baltheon work, even if they do die by using their body to block the bullets, they have done their job well. Offense death is a a lot more painful, and a breaker's death is FAR more painful than a death of a baltheon.

Also, I don't believe baltheon shield is HP based, but by number of hits.

It's HP and time. It will go down after a certain amount of damage or time, whichever comes first. Your theory is likely an observation of the shield timing out.
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