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 [GUIDE] Comprehensive Epoch Guide

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Suguri
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PostSubject: [GUIDE] Comprehensive Epoch Guide   Thu Jul 28, 2011 8:38 pm

Epoch is hard.

Really hard.

Halp guise epokk so hard what dooooooooooooooo



Offense



Shoot the PS.

Let me say that again, shoot the PS.

In case the 20 teammates farming trees, seven shooting a frog hopper at our spawn, and two others trying to lagkun at defenders didn't hear me: Shoot. The. Goddamn. Power Spot.

You can't win offense through kills. You have to get PS breaks to win.

>but if i dont shoot defenders they shoot me halp what do

Defenders have instant respawn, and don't have to worry about their own cost. Attacking defenders (usually) is a waste of time, health, ammo, and other resources.

>but i shoot the ps and it take 1 damage what do

Use shotguns. On offense, if you aren't using the following...

Custom Shotgun
Blitz Blaster
Omega Blaster
Shotgun
Burst Fire Bit/Burst Fire chibi circle

...just alt+f4 and let someone that knows what they're doing join. Quad csg is enough for you to easily break a PS solo, but as long as you have at least one of the above on each bot you're helping.

>but i shoot the ps and they shoot me what do

Stop sucking. Learn how to dodge, or use other methods of survival. I'm not going to hold your hand on this one, it should be easy enough to figure out.

>but my hp is low we need healers

No. No no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no. Healers accomplish multiple things, all of which are unproductive for epoch offense.

  • Teammates sitting under a repair bit aren't helping to keep pressure on the power spot, effectively meaning defense has an easier time defending.
  • Ammo can start to become a problem with prolonged lifespans.
  • Having everyone grouped up in one spot makes TBGs, EVEs, meteors, etc. that much more devastating.
  • It likely wastes wonder drugs that your teammates with actually useful bits (burst fire, propeller, sniping, haku circle) would benefit from.


If you see anyone healing on your offense team, votekick them. If you can't do that, teampillar them. Offense healers cause offense to lose 99.998% of the time. (note to wiz: That means votekick Nyah)

>i see trees i should shoot them

And I should slap you. Drops early on do not help much in epoch. Good things (omega hippo, meteors, hyper shots) don't drop until your team's BP starts to drop.

If you are a dedicated PS breaker, or farming for one, that changes things. Toss your breakers fire pillars, hyper shots, hippos, and hurricane blasts so they have the necessary distractions to help them get the break.

Follow this, and you should win offense every time.



Defense



As a defender, you're fucked if offense does their job right. Don't worry though, NFA mostly quit.

The following are things you can do to make the offending team do even more horribly than they probably will, and ensure your victory.

  • Distractions - This usually means hoppers and wingspam seraphs, or heavily shielded melee. The more people attacking you, the less people attacking the PS. Also, the more people attacking you, the more targets you have.
  • Crowd Control - Bots that can handle multiple targets at once are a huge boon to a defending team as far as repelling attackers is concerned.
  • PS Fortification - Baltheon/Bugsycait shields, Barrier Fields, Undead Bits, Repair Bits, Melfi repair arrows. These are all things that can make your PS that much harder to break.
  • Being annoying - Farm the other team's trees so they can't get items. Drop traps in tunnels. Drop Sniping Units in the enemy spawn. Carpet bomb with SB Pitchers. This kind of goes hand-in-hand with Distractions; whatever you can do to gimp the offenders' assault is beneficial.
  • More to be added later...


Remember: Your PS breaking is the only thing that can make you lose. Beef up your defense bots as much as you want, cost isn't a factor.
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PostSubject: Re: [GUIDE] Comprehensive Epoch Guide   Thu Jul 28, 2011 8:57 pm

oh fucking DOS noobs really need to read this... mostly those fucking latinos noobs that always get 13k cost cuz they use fuking fat arts in offense and then they celebrate cuz of getting no.1 with 3k score and 13k of cost,
So i will just pray to GOD to make them read this and follow it, cuz they are the reason of DOS being always 3rd Place, but hey foolishness has not limit so i cant expect to much
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PostSubject: Re: [GUIDE] Comprehensive Epoch Guide   Thu Jul 28, 2011 9:15 pm

Can't forget Greinaut attraction circles. Just about [if not singlehandedly] froze DOS offense a few times with one... and yes there were 25+ on their side
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PostSubject: Re: [GUIDE] Comprehensive Epoch Guide   Thu Jul 28, 2011 9:18 pm

Either you're a distraction, a ps breaker, a kamikaze, or a gtfo
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PostSubject: Re: [GUIDE] Comprehensive Epoch Guide   Thu Jul 28, 2011 9:25 pm

well if people were smart enough distraction should not work
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PostSubject: Re: [GUIDE] Comprehensive Epoch Guide   Thu Jul 28, 2011 9:56 pm

@Z741 wrote:
Can't forget Greinaut attraction circles. Just about [if not singlehandedly] froze DOS offense a few times with one... and yes there were 25+ on their side
Greinaut is indeed amazing for defense. I've heard Sigma Clock's good too, but I have trouble effectively placing Late Clocks in some maps.
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PostSubject: Re: [GUIDE] Comprehensive Epoch Guide   Thu Jul 28, 2011 10:11 pm

Greinaut and sigma spammed so much in jp epoch
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PostSubject: Re: [GUIDE] Comprehensive Epoch Guide   Thu Jul 28, 2011 10:31 pm

@xzpwnz wrote:
Greinaut and sigma spammed so much in jp epoch
Yeah, those two and Melfi really help a lot in defense.

And yet offense still usually wins in JP. GEE I WONDER WHAT EN'S DOING WRONG (protip: shoot the PS you derps)
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PostSubject: Re: [GUIDE] Comprehensive Epoch Guide   Thu Jul 28, 2011 10:42 pm

Following spoken with a defense perspective.

Encircled maps are good for greinaut and sigma DI cockblocking. Anything that's not an air has to go the long way. Take the small island and guarantee victory.

Undercover maps are good for greinaut, sigma regular and TRI cockblocking. Low ceiling means airs aren't completely out of reach, and your PS is surrounded on 3 sides by natural obstacles. DI is less effective here because the slow fields are blocked by the complicated terrain.

Greinaut T2 is pretty undervalued as an epoch bot, his attraction ball is summoned over his head, pretty much right where buridens fly over you (especially on altitude limit maps). Repulsion balls (when large enough) also keep melee defense gankers away from your teammates defending. He's also tall enough to heal the PS (add missile barrel LGJ if you're unsure) without boosting up.

Corridor maps are a pain, because a giant mushroom (which always contains something "good" like an omega hippo or meteor) spawns in one of the four chambers, if offense controls these rooms, you can pretty much count on a rush when they're on their last 10-20k BP. And with the amount of meteors and hippos summoned, this is also when the lag hits.

Defense line maps have you split into defending 3 PS at the same time, you pretty much need broad radar fags who tell you enemy movement otherwise they're going to rush the least guarded PS before reinforcements can arrive.

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PostSubject: Re: [GUIDE] Comprehensive Epoch Guide   Thu Jul 28, 2011 10:55 pm

Whats your opinion on Daemon AM3 (Finger shotgun) for PS breaking?

It doesn't have a lot of ammo, but it seems to have a pretty good damage output.
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PostSubject: Re: [GUIDE] Comprehensive Epoch Guide   Thu Jul 28, 2011 11:07 pm

I fucking love you, Suguri, for this.
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PostSubject: Re: [GUIDE] Comprehensive Epoch Guide   Thu Jul 28, 2011 11:23 pm

@Hyoka wrote:
Whats your opinion on Daemon AM3 (Finger shotgun) for PS breaking?

It doesn't have a lot of ammo, but it seems to have a pretty good damage output.
How many bullets does it shoot per shot? I'm assuming 5.

Either way, I'm going to first assume that it's like Mountaiz AM2, where it'd be "alright, but overshadowed by alternatives in most cases".
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PostSubject: Re: [GUIDE] Comprehensive Epoch Guide   Thu Jul 28, 2011 11:30 pm

@Suguri wrote:
@Hyoka wrote:
Whats your opinion on Daemon AM3 (Finger shotgun) for PS breaking?

It doesn't have a lot of ammo, but it seems to have a pretty good damage output.
How many bullets does it shoot per shot? I'm assuming 5.

Either way, I'm going to first assume that it's like Mountaiz AM2, where it'd be "alright, but overshadowed by alternatives in most cases".

5 shots, with a higher force.
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PostSubject: Re: [GUIDE] Comprehensive Epoch Guide   Thu Jul 28, 2011 11:40 pm

Looked it over, pretty much in the same boat as Mountaiz AM2, if not worse. 80 DPS is lower than even regular shotguns (~126? 128?). Mountaiz AM2 at least has range and decently tight spread, making it a viable UC alternative to Blitz Blaster. Daemon AM3 seems outclassed by the other land options completely.
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PostSubject: Re: [GUIDE] Comprehensive Epoch Guide   Thu Jul 28, 2011 11:45 pm

hmm... I don't feel I can agree to everything in the guide.

Things like hopper in defense... say if the offense is filled with experienced epoch-er, hopper is absolutely useless, all offense would just zoom pass you. Defense want that DPS, so alpha fag is one of the important element of epoch defense.

The holy trinity of defense is tank (baltheon, undead bit etc), DPS (alpha users and heavy hitter melee) and healers (only melfi really). Though you can mix in a few debuffers like winberl's drawgun/thorn bind, but they should be lower priority.
(there are more things i disagree with but don't feel it is worth time to point out: read below)
But then, this is a guide for the NA side where bad epoch players are all over, so hopper actually do work... scratch

I guess I should see this as epoch 101 or epoch for dummies etc, and wait for an advance epoch guide when NA player can actually do the basic (probably will never happen, because we even got language barriers on majority of the population, and good amount of players too young to analyze scenarios or buy rt).

edit: forgot to mention burning users next to winberl, they were quite annoying on certain map. It is a crime not to mention them after I have been a victim of them and fell off cliff Neutral


Last edited by fhoeng on Thu Jul 28, 2011 11:54 pm; edited 2 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: [GUIDE] Comprehensive Epoch Guide   Thu Jul 28, 2011 11:52 pm

@knyx wrote:
broad radar fags

sadface.jpg :c

I want to say it's easier to attack the North/South Power Spots than it is attacking the central one on Defense Line for a few reasons:
- Central is higher and closer to the ceiling, buridens can't employ height as effectively as the other two locations
- Conversely, if platforms aren't occupied/covered by defending ARTs, offensive AIRs can use these to recharge boost and continue PS killing
- Central PS has a steep drop surrounding it, one push and offense LNDs are SOL for the most part (until we start seeing Beetlander HD/Big Head HDJ anyway)
- Not too sure on this one, central is more easily accessible from defense spawn than the other two
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PostSubject: Re: [GUIDE] Comprehensive Epoch Guide   Fri Jul 29, 2011 2:05 am

Just going to put a few of my experiences/opinions here...

If you're using a shotgun to break, don't fly right up against the PS. If you're a LND, you're moving really slow. If you're an AIR, that's free frags for anyone with an explosive (Blast Zookas?) smart enough to shoot the PS and splash dmg you. Not sure about this, but I think it also reduces the damage of shotguns if you don't let the bullets spread a bit. Correct if wrong please.

On Defense, you don't want to start by camping under the PS and shooting stuff that approaches unless you have a godly range gun and a clear firing path. There's no point in letting the Offense team cover all that ground between their spawn and your PS uncontested. Go to a choke point or other strategic location that's closer to their side. There's absolutely no reason to fear getting killed, you have instant respawn and cost nearly nothing. The worst thing that could happen is that you have to switch a bot and defend at the PS, where you would have been if you camped at the start!

Locations I'd recommend:

Encircled maps: Rush up the bridge/capture the SW hill first thing. The bridge is the only sane access point for stuff that's not an AIR or on fire. Don't overcrowd the PS, you block shots from allies that could be swatting AIRs down.

Undercover maps: Go straight at their spawn, the first barrel rooms that the Offense passes through MUST be entered in order to access the rest of the map. If you control those rooms, they can't flank you. Offense won't be able to even touch the PS! Tunnels can be blocked with Winberyl Ellen's bind, without exposing her to fire from enemies within that tunnel. Awesome map to spam Blast Bazookas at terrain for splash-dmg kills on AIRs.
Tip for offense: Defense often leaves the barrels in their base unguarded. Hilarious to loot meteors from their barrels and use them to secure a win.

Mushroom maps: Only chokepoint I can find is the one leading out of their spawn. You'll have to push to it.

Defense Line maps: Go past the center PS, and defend the ramps leading to the side and then to their spawn. Since it angles upwards for the Offense team and downwards for Defense, you can see what they have while they can only see some of your forces. Gives AIR units height advantage.


Amateus Muchi is nice as a Defense ART. No need to aim with Solar Buster, makes AIRs land on hit. Useful on Defense Line maps if they attack the side PS with AIRs possessing flight extension. Knock them down from their alt advantage!

Opinion on Teleport Bits for side attacks for Offense?
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PostSubject: Re: [GUIDE] Comprehensive Epoch Guide   Fri Jul 29, 2011 3:23 pm

Holy shit Suguri, if people read this, epoch might actually become a real fight instead of one side half-knowing what to do and the other side gets blown to pieces.

On offense, attacking the defenders with a bot that easily dodges attacks/possess high speed/has anti-homing, like a Seraph or something similar can help to draw away fire from the real dangers: your teammates breaking their PS, as well as providing harrassment benefit to your team.
This should not be the job of the whole team, because that makes OFF lose like shit. Maybe dispatch a couple guys with Seraphs or Vanguards to occupy a part of the enemy team while the main force breaks the PS. This tactic works a hell of a lot better on maps with multiple PSes, as you can split off a couple distractors to create the illusion of an attack.
In the meantime, they'll be drawing defenses to the PS under distraction, while your team sends the main force to the lightly defended PSes and breaks them.

On maps with those gigantic pits in the middle:
DO NOT GO IN THE PIT UNLESS YOU'RE AN AIR. Even then it's dangerous, because the only ways out of the pit are 1)fly straight into enemy territory, jump up the cliffs, and pray that you can get the hell out of there before getting your ass shot off(I've tried this, every time that I've tried I usually end up a smoking pile of rusted metal), or 2)jump on the big rock usually situated in the middle of the pit, and fly out(which can only be accomplished by an Air, or an Art with maximum FLY and maybe not even then). Not only are you dropping into what is usually the biggest firefight in the map, but also you're making yourself an easy kill for the defenders at the middle PS(which is usually situated perfectly above the pit), and you're draining on your team by doing shit for them.

Maps with multiple PSes(especially PSes that are situated far from each other) usually present a disadvantage to Defense. The disadvantage is obvious: if you're distracted by a small force at one PS and draw your forces away from the other PSes, you're screwed over when the main force quickly breaks the lightly defended PSes. You are also forced to spread your defenses thinner in order to adequately cover all three or two PSes. Knowing how to spot a distraction in the works is critical on these maps, as a poor judgement call or a poor mistake in strategy can mean one or two PSes broken in less than five minutes.
Protip: If you see unsupported Seraphs, Vanguards, Lagkuns, or any other bot of that sort attacking your PS, it's probably a distraction to make you call for reinforcements from the other PSes. If they're attacking the defenders, it's pretty much a dead giveaway that it's a distraction, as a true assault force would not bother neutralizing the defenders.

Pulsardio is useful on defense as an EMP nuker. There are times that I've seen teams try to crack a PS with long-range missiles and nobody can take them out because they're too far away to engage directly, and if they try the ARTs in question are usually supported by direct fire from Airs or Lands. Pulsardio can put a stop to that just by nuking them with EMP missiles, temporarily halting missile attacks and forcing Offense to confront your defenders directly.

Also, no matter what anyone says, Offense does need attackers to take on Defense bots while the dedicated PS breakers take position and begin the assault. There's a simple reason for this: Since most dedicated PS breakers are usually holding shotgun- or blaster-type weapons, they usually have trouble dealing with direct fire from enemy bots as the bots' smaller hitboxes will reduce the efficiency of any shotgun or blaster. PS breakers can't do their job if they get swamped instantly with direct fire the second they get near the PS(which usually happens when ANY bot comes near the defensive matrix that's usually set up around the PS).
However taking on defenders should not be the job of the whole team. Like Suguri said, that's plain stupid and loses the war. Attacking defenders should just be a distraction tactic until your PS breakers can do their job, but it has to be an essential tactic.

Offensive healers...are pretty much useless unless they're situated in a safe area where bots being healed can still fire on the PS...which almost never happens. Bring Burst Fire or Long Range.

Also, farming Omega Hippos are useful on both offense and defense. Don't discount them as just an offensive weapon, dropping friendly hippos in your own PS when it's under attack can provide 1)extra, powerful defenses, and 2)temporary fatass meat shields.
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PostSubject: Re: [GUIDE] Comprehensive Epoch Guide   Fri Jul 29, 2011 4:07 pm

@FireKiller87 wrote:
Holy shit Suguri, if people read this, epoch might actually become a real fight instead of one side half-knowing what to do and the other side gets blown to pieces.

That won't happen due to the irony of guides; only (good) people who want to improve ever read them, while the incompetent masses who think they are good never read them.
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PostSubject: Re: [GUIDE] Comprehensive Epoch Guide   Fri Jul 29, 2011 4:27 pm

@FireKiller87 wrote:
Holy shit Suguri, if people read this, epoch might actually become a real fight instead of one side half-knowing what to do and the other side gets blown to pieces.
Maybe I should post it on commu too.
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PostSubject: Re: [GUIDE] Comprehensive Epoch Guide   Fri Jul 29, 2011 5:20 pm

might be me only but i feel baltheon is not that useful in epoch.( all decent breakers use shotgun and blaster make his shield instantly break) if you really need meat shield Daedalon with double K-shield look better.(and maybe put Asura Amj and 2 more arms for more hp.)

and spaming sigma clock in epoch is fun. (。▻∀◕)~
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PostSubject: Re: [GUIDE] Comprehensive Epoch Guide   Fri Jul 29, 2011 6:23 pm

Beautiful thread. Will be linking this because I was planning to write an epoch bit, but hell, this is better than what I would tack out. Gj Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: [GUIDE] Comprehensive Epoch Guide   Fri Jul 29, 2011 6:43 pm

@NotZetsubou wrote:
might be me only but i feel baltheon is not that useful in epoch.( all decent breakers use shotgun and blaster make his shield instantly break) if you really need meat shield Daedalon with double K-shield look better.(and maybe put Asura Amj and 2 more arms for more hp.)

and spaming sigma clock in epoch is fun. (。▻∀◕)~
Baltheon isn't going to stop dedicated breakers. My Alphaquila (no, he isn't built for PS breaking) pops regular balth shields before they even fully form. He still helps impede anyone that isn't running shotguns though, and serves a good distraction role.

Also useful for shielding your healers so their repair bits don't break instantly.
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PostSubject: Re: [GUIDE] Comprehensive Epoch Guide   Fri Jul 29, 2011 7:59 pm

@Suguri wrote:
@NotZetsubou wrote:
might be me only but i feel baltheon is not that useful in epoch.( all decent breakers use shotgun and blaster make his shield instantly break) if you really need meat shield Daedalon with double K-shield look better.(and maybe put Asura Amj and 2 more arms for more hp.)

and spaming sigma clock in epoch is fun. (。▻∀◕)~
Baltheon isn't going to stop dedicated breakers. My Alphaquila (no, he isn't built for PS breaking) pops regular balth shields before they even fully form. He still helps impede anyone that isn't running shotguns though, and serves a good distraction role.

Also useful for shielding your healers so their repair bits don't break instantly.

Baltheons won't stop breakers, but according to the current metagame, we don't have too many of those PS breakers around(anybody who's got shotgun or blaster weaponry, either single or dual armed), and even fewer dedicated ones(the ones with Asura AMJs and quad CSGs). They'll stop the majority of attackers as their lighter armamanets will be unable to disable the B-Field rapidly.

Also, Baltheons with deployed B-Fields can give their team enough time to heal the PS somewhat, possibly setting up enough time for an effective counterattack or a more strategic defensive posture.

On defense, the best(and really the only) way to counter incoming PS breakers is to drown them in heavy direct fire. Since a lot of them are Artillery(more capa to fit Asura AMJs and multiple shotguns/blasters), they usually have very high HP levels(even more so if they're outnumbered). However, they are usually unable to retaliate when confronted by direct fire by generally more mobile enemy bots, reason being that the short effective range and spreadshot characteristic of shotguns and blasters is not efficient at all when fighting smaller, mobile enemies.
In addition, the bulk associated with PS breakers makes them an easy target for direct fire.
If this can't be done, inflicting them with Disorder status can partially slow the damage to the PS until the breakers can be targeted.

On maps with the one PS situated in the area with two ground entrances curving around(usually the labyrinth-type maps), laying Pillbox Units or possibly Vulcan Units on the passageways can be an effective stalling tactic. As the Pillbox Unit is large for a WB(I haven't experimented much with Vulcan, somebody please confirm if they can be used also), they can be planted at the narrowest point in the ground passageways to block entry to Lands, Supports, and Artilleries until the gauge runs dry or the unit is destroyed. The Units will also inflict damage on anything that comes close(I've killed a few units by dropping Pillboxes, granted they were critically damaged but still), and can be used as cover for smaller bots.
Thus by temporarily removing ground attacks as a threat, your team can concentrate on eliminating airborne attackers, then converge on the passageways to eliminate the ground threat, and then push forward until your team can establish an effective defensive line outward some distance from your PS.
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PostSubject: Re: [GUIDE] Comprehensive Epoch Guide   Fri Jul 29, 2011 8:13 pm

Can a Garula AM with max range tunes and a range circle reach the PS on an Encircled map from the eastern island/pillar? Would be interesting if it could. On a similar note, sitting a Crim-chan or other chibis with a Burst Fire circle on the SW pillar on an Encircled map gives a major advantage to offense. Buffs at any time, and your breakers are harder to kill due to the chibi kiss.
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