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 Sword Drive Selection (Jace)

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EXNova
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PostSubject: Sword Drive Selection (Jace)   Wed Sep 09, 2015 2:47 pm

So, I just unlocked the next set of carts for four and five, and I wanted to ask a few questions.

So far, I've installed

HP Up 30
-- Self explanatory

Reinforce S
-- The Melt EX tune is just too damn good on him, from what I've seen. Even with just one installed, it procs fairly regularly (I'm not a hundred percent on this, but I think it might proc off of his bubbles like how Scaregant's bombs work), and it makes Assault Stepping into the dash-claw combo exceptionally easy after that giant knockback (they can't fly away fast enough)

Berserk Clearance
-- I haven't had it for a long time, but it's already massively useful. Given how quickly he combos, it seems to proc very regularly, with one chain sometimes proccing it twice or even three times. And given how frustrating it is trying to dive with a melee character in a meta replete with things like Melt and Powerless BETA, it seems like it's going to be worth its weight in gold.

Those were my picks, and I think they're solid, but if someone wants to drop a little knowledge on me, be my guest. I think I want to grab the Lifetaker cart, but feel free to correct that as well if it's a horrible idea. But the real issue is that I'm torn between the Armor Breaker and Revenge Sword carts.

I have no idea how long Revenge Sword lasts, but given how fast Jace attacks it's conceivable that it could easily outstrip the amount of damage he would get on an automatic TGH reset if it was more than a few seconds, and even if it doesn't, it would appear it can proc on any part of his combo.

That said, using Armor Breaker to do a double back-crit could conceivably strip anywhere from 200-300 HP off a target's HP under the right circumstances, which is just an unbelievable amount of power, and since Jace excels at finding and destroying lone targets, Armor Breaker would make him even better at doing that.
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PostSubject: Re: Sword Drive Selection (Jace)   Wed Sep 09, 2015 4:10 pm

Life taker is really really bad. I think its a 5% chance to heal 10% of damage done or maybe the other way around? That's like 5hp per 1000 damage done on average, it's really fucking bad.

Armor breaker is pretty decent, it's a noticeable damage increase when it happens even if it doesn't happen that often. I didn't like revenge sword very much, it has a fairly low proc chance and I think it either overwrites other revenge tunes when it activates or doesn't proc during other revenge tunes? Maybe someone else knows but it had some negative interaction with normal revenge tunes which sux.

I honestly can't remember what else sword drive gets...Meditation is good with boost run. If it gets stun recovery that cart is pretty decent too but I don't think it does...
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PostSubject: Re: Sword Drive Selection (Jace)   Wed Sep 09, 2015 5:18 pm

Mmh...isn't Revenge Sword supposed to proc CV or something?

I have no idea what his combo works like. If he's got hitton of hits in the first click then take armor breaker.

I his tracking is retarded in aerial situations take aerial fighter.

Otherwise...skip the cost???
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PostSubject: Re: Sword Drive Selection (Jace)   Wed Sep 09, 2015 5:22 pm

@hannahberry wrote:
I honestly can't remember what else sword drive gets...Meditation is good with boost run. If it gets stun recovery that cart is pretty decent too but I don't think it does...
This is the only one I was thinking about putting in, honestly.

@hannahberry wrote:
I didn't like revenge sword very much, it has a fairly low proc chance and I think it either overwrites other revenge tunes when it activates or doesn't proc during other revenge tunes? Maybe someone else knows but it had some negative interaction with normal revenge tunes which sux.

Jace has super armor throughout much of his combo, and Crimson Crusader covers the biggest gap where he can be stunned out of his combo as it winds up. There aren't any revenge tunes in my build as a result (Also because I'm poor AF). Since his combo chain is so long and comes out so fast, that ten percent is mathematically guaranteed at least once during his chain. Granted, RNG is a fickle beast, but... it's pretty reliable.

@hannahberry wrote:
Life taker is really really bad. I think its a 5% chance to heal 10% of damage done or maybe the other way around? That's like 5hp per 1000 damage done on average, it's really fucking bad.

Your math is off; I know because I did a whole lot of shit to even figure out if it was worth taking. On a target with neutral resistances and no modifiers (eg, back-crit, TGH reduction, etc), each instance of damage is between forty and fifty damage, and one flat chain is eleven hits and takes between five and six seconds. Using his shield cartridge adds another three sets of three bubbles each and juggles the target. That totals out to 20 strikes in total, over the course of six seconds or so.

Assuming you land all of the strikes and miss a few bubbles due to their positioning (I honestly have no idea if there's a reduction in damage for bubbles because the numbers come out so fast), the math for your average damage per strike in a single chain looks like this:
Intense Mathermatical Shit:
 

In ball mode, targets are juggled pretty much the entire time; the only time you're not in ball mode is when you're dueling melees or characters with powerful sub-weapon escapes like Homura and Momiji Sen. So, assuming my earlier statement about his flat damage is correct, we'll say his damage per strike is 45. That totals out to an average damage 39.93, which I'm gonna round up to 40 cause I'm lazy AF.

That means you're going to heal for about 5 damage per chain, on average. Since each chain takes five seconds, that means for every second you are actively meleeing, you're healing 1 HP.

There are a number of things that can distort these numbers, and almost all of them are going to increase them (back-crits, type bonuses, multiple targets hit, etc), but as a general bottom line, the math comes back as

1 HP/Second

That number seems pretty low and has a number of caveats (which is why I'm bolding it and underlining it and shit to make it seem epic), but it's noticeable active healing and that's fucking great. Granted, there probably aren't many characters who can make use of the cart like Jace can, but... it's still solid, if only for him.
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PostSubject: Re: Sword Drive Selection (Jace)   Wed Sep 09, 2015 5:53 pm

Chance isn't the biggest problem of Lifetaker. I mean, it certainly contributes to it. But the math is relatively, to a point, sound. Lifetaker is a very common tune for Haku-bots because with Combination Daggers, you're hitting 27+ times in a very short amount of time, which has a lot of proc potential on top of the massively multiplied melee damage that Haku takes. Certainly, it has dry spots where you go multiple phases in a row without a heal, but then you'll run the next phase and proc on 80% of your hits because, well, that's how it rolls and you end up with full HP anyway. It's a functional cart.

The fundamental problem with Lifetaker in UW is its circumstantial nature. You can math it out to look pretty nice and active healing, but consider a few factors.

- You need to actually be hurting to get the healing. Any time you're not hurt, then it's not really helping you at all.
- You need a target that you are actively beating up. If you're simply injured from an earlier engagement, foraging is easy enough assuming you can actually find something that won't retaliate with more damage than you heal at 1 HP/sec.
- You need a target you can actually proc against. This is an extension of the former in that if you just prey on weakened targets, they have less HP to begin with. The more HP the target has for you to feed off of, the more damage potential you can receive in exchange since the battle will go on longer.
- You need to be in range. Lifetaker is restricted to primarily stuff that only works in close range. Melees are, typically, built to actually close in, certainly, but it's still an important factor that you're most likely needing to be in the enemy lines in some fashion to get this healing.
- You need to profit in healing. Any circumstance wherein you can be meleeing to receive 1 HP/sec for longer than 10 seconds, you're probably going to be in a large scale battle. And there will be other people attacking you in this process, probably doing a lot more than 1 damage per second.

That's the ultimate problem with it - the less likely you are to take more damage than you are healing, the less healing you're probably going to get due to there being fewer targets with less HP.

A bit of a history lesson. There's an oft-ignored cart, Soul Eater. It actually has the same recovery potential as Lifetaker does per target - you recover 10% of the target's max HP when you kill it. But unlike Lifetaker, this is a guaranteed effect that you can actually plan around. You can stalk for low-HP targets to finish off, for example, if not also focus on those who can't particularly escape from you. This cart almost works, especially in today's meta where bots regularly have 400-700 HP so that's a healthy chunk of healing per kill compared to back then. But at the end of the day, the cart's actual problem is that it costs way too much on top of taking up a cart slot that few bots who have access to the tune can afford.

Here, we have the opposite situation, though - Lifetaker is not a huge cost sink to your build (it doesn't consume actual capacity since it's a Drive cart, and Sword Drive is starved for competing carts - in this case I would personally say the better options would be Armor Breaker, Meditation, Aerial Fighter, and Wonder Cancel, the latter three dependent on what exactly your build was) so you aren't losing much to put it in and work with it. Just keep in mind that there's more than just the math.
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PostSubject: Re: Sword Drive Selection (Jace)   Wed Sep 09, 2015 6:03 pm

um wtf are you talking about

Life taker is 5% chance per hit to heal 10% of damage dealt.

(5% chance * number of hits)(10% of damage per hit * damage per hit) or (.05 * n)(.1 * d) n = number of chances to proc (hits) d = average damage per hit

you can simplify it to .005T where T = your damage total (your damage total is just how many times you hit * your average damage per hit or n * d)

so basically ignoring dumb rounding shit you heal on average 0.5% of your total damage dealt.

I honestly have no fucking clue wtf you are talking about or what you are trying to do with that math hahahah

But to heal 1hp per second on average while meleeing means you would be doing 200 damage per second which is like really crazy for any melee and basically impossible even vs arts because of tgh etc etc

@EXNova wrote:
Jace has super armor throughout much of his combo, and Crimson Crusader covers the biggest gap where he can be stunned out of his combo as it winds up. There aren't any revenge tunes in my build as a result (Also because I'm poor AF). Since his combo chain is so long and comes out so fast, that ten percent is mathematically guaranteed at least once during his chain. Granted, RNG is a fickle beast, but... it's pretty reliable.
Clearance is still really good even with super armor/fast recovery/berserk clearance, probably the single most slot/cost efficient tune in the game.

Revenge sword is like a revenge tune BTW in case you're confused, it procs from being stunned it's not a per-hit chance. In case you mean toughness breaker it only procs on any melee hits from the first click of a melee combo, not any follow up clicks. I've heard it can proc multiple times from this first click if there are multiple hits in your first click but never tried it out myself.
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PostSubject: Re: Sword Drive Selection (Jace)   Wed Sep 09, 2015 6:53 pm

@JadeCicada wrote:
Chance isn't the biggest problem of Lifetaker. I mean, it certainly contributes to it. But the math is relatively, to a point, sound. Lifetaker is a very common tune for Haku-bots because with Combination Daggers, you're hitting 27+ times in a very short amount of time, which has a lot of proc potential on top of the massively multiplied melee damage that Haku takes. Certainly, it has dry spots where you go multiple phases in a row without a heal, but then you'll run the next phase and proc on 80% of your hits because, well, that's how it rolls and you end up with full HP anyway. It's a functional cart.

The fundamental problem with Lifetaker in UW is its circumstantial nature. You can math it out to look pretty nice and active healing, but consider a few factors.

- You need to actually be hurting to get the healing. Any time you're not hurt, then it's not really helping you at all.
- You need a target that you are actively beating up. If you're simply injured from an earlier engagement, foraging is easy enough assuming you can actually find something that won't retaliate with more damage than you heal at 1 HP/sec.
- You need a target you can actually proc against. This is an extension of the former in that if you just prey on weakened targets, they have less HP to begin with. The more HP the target has for you to feed off of, the more damage potential you can receive in exchange since the battle will go on longer.
- You need to be in range. Lifetaker is restricted to primarily stuff that only works in close range. Melees are, typically, built to actually close in, certainly, but it's still an important factor that you're most likely needing to be in the enemy lines in some fashion to get this healing.
- You need to profit in healing. Any circumstance wherein you can be meleeing to receive 1 HP/sec for longer than 10 seconds, you're probably going to be in a large scale battle. And there will be other people attacking you in this process, probably doing a lot more than 1 damage per second.

That's the ultimate problem with it - the less likely you are to take more damage than you are healing, the less healing you're probably going to get due to there being fewer targets with less HP.

A bit of a history lesson. There's an oft-ignored cart, Soul Eater. It actually has the same recovery potential as Lifetaker does per target - you recover 10% of the target's max HP when you kill it. But unlike Lifetaker, this is a guaranteed effect that you can actually plan around. You can stalk for low-HP targets to finish off, for example, if not also focus on those who can't particularly escape from you. This cart almost works, especially in today's meta where bots regularly have 400-700 HP so that's a healthy chunk of healing per kill compared to back then. But at the end of the day, the cart's actual problem is that it costs way too much on top of taking up a cart slot that few bots who have access to the tune can afford.

Here, we have the opposite situation, though - Lifetaker is not a huge cost sink to your build (it doesn't consume actual capacity since it's a Drive cart, and Sword Drive is starved for competing carts - in this case I would personally say the better options would be Armor Breaker, Meditation, Aerial Fighter, and Wonder Cancel, the latter three dependent on what exactly your build was) so you aren't losing much to put it in and work with it. Just keep in mind that there's more than just the math.

Right, Meditation seems solid. Considering I'm running a 38/1 Boost Run/Assault Step build, would you say it outclasses Lifetaker's healing potential? It seems Armor Breaker would be the best option for damage, given that Jace can also cancel combos.
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PostSubject: Re: Sword Drive Selection (Jace)   Wed Sep 09, 2015 6:59 pm

@JadeCicada wrote:
A bit of a history lesson. There's an oft-ignored cart, Soul Eater. It actually has the same recovery potential as Lifetaker does per target - you recover 10% of the target's max HP when you kill it. But unlike Lifetaker, this is a guaranteed effect that you can actually plan around. You can stalk for low-HP targets to finish off, for example, if not also focus on those who can't particularly escape from you. This cart almost works, especially in today's meta where bots regularly have 400-700 HP so that's a healthy chunk of healing per kill compared to back then. But at the end of the day, the cart's actual problem is that it costs way too much on top of taking up a cart slot that few bots who have access to the tune can afford.

Unless something was changed since the years when the wiki was written Soul Eater gives 5% of max HP, not 10%. I never actually tested it though, always seemed terrible.
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PostSubject: Re: Sword Drive Selection (Jace)   Wed Sep 09, 2015 7:22 pm

@VeryMelon wrote:
@JadeCicada wrote:
A bit of a history lesson. There's an oft-ignored cart, Soul Eater. It actually has the same recovery potential as Lifetaker does per target - you recover 10% of the target's max HP when you kill it. But unlike Lifetaker, this is a guaranteed effect that you can actually plan around. You can stalk for low-HP targets to finish off, for example, if not also focus on those who can't particularly escape from you. This cart almost works, especially in today's meta where bots regularly have 400-700 HP so that's a healthy chunk of healing per kill compared to back then. But at the end of the day, the cart's actual problem is that it costs way too much on top of taking up a cart slot that few bots who have access to the tune can afford.

Unless something was changed since the years when the wiki was written Soul Eater gives 5% of max HP, not 10%. I never actually tested it though, always seemed terrible.

I remember people asking about it; it was the same deal with the old localization for the "Breaker" tune where it said it gave more damage. Everybody wanted to know, but nobody ever actually wanted to invest time or resources into figuring out how the hell it worked.
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PostSubject: Re: Sword Drive Selection (Jace)   Wed Sep 09, 2015 7:28 pm

Soul eater Sucks, Revegen Sword Sucked .3. bc it barely activated D:, Life Steal or w.e it was Sucks D:
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PostSubject: Re: Sword Drive Selection (Jace)   Wed Sep 09, 2015 8:24 pm

@VeryMelon wrote:
Unless something was changed since the years when the wiki was written Soul Eater gives 5% of max HP, not 10%. I never actually tested it though, always seemed terrible.

I honestly haven't tested it since 2012, but I'm pretty sure I remembered the number being 10%. It was terrible at the time since no one had enough HP for that to be worth it. That said I'm also not unconvinced that I might just be terrible with my memory on this particular point. Too bad no one actually runs the tune to actually confirm, wahaha~

@EXNova wrote:
I remember people asking about it; it was the same deal with the old localization for the "Breaker" tune where it said it gave more damage. Everybody wanted to know, but nobody ever actually wanted to invest time or resources into figuring out how the hell it worked.

I can actually tell you how the Breaker tune works, since about 6 of us got together and actually did hard science on it finally after all these years, I want to say around March or April this year. But that'd be getting off-topic from here.

@EXNova wrote:
Right, Meditation seems solid. Considering I'm running a 38/1 Boost Run/Assault Step build, would you say it outclasses Lifetaker's healing potential? It seems Armor Breaker would be the best option for damage, given that Jace can also cancel combos.

So there's a bit of a caveat here. At base level, Meditation is quite handy on boost run melees because it essentially means they're never caught out of boost. You use boost to find a target, carve them up a bunch, and in doing so, you've replenished most if not all of your boost again so you can either retreat or repeat the cycle as the situation calls. This gives it strong utility both offensively and defensively for the melee, so on those grounds alone I find it more useful than Lifetaker.

The caveat - I don't know how Jace's melee string works at all, having never had access to one. I assume it shouldn't be a problem, but it's important to know that certain bots have melee strings that are not 100% grounded. And so Meditation will only work during the grounded portions. Weapons that put you in lift-off (which is generally an air problem) or which have certain kinds of jumps (Eris comes to mind) would be examples. But assuming that Jace doesn't have this issue, then yeah. Would go for it.

Armor Breaker, despite what the text says, actually can proc on any swing, not just the first. It's pretty noticeable in Haku since you can proc it on the secondary spin or the combo'd spin with your other hand. Works in a arena too - should work as long as it's a subweapon that deals melee type damage.
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PostSubject: Re: Sword Drive Selection (Jace)   Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:04 pm

@JadeCicada wrote:
@EXNova wrote:
I remember people asking about it; it was the same deal with the old localization for the "Breaker" tune where it said it gave more damage. Everybody wanted to know, but nobody ever actually wanted to invest time or resources into figuring out how the hell it worked.

I can actually tell you how the Breaker tune works, since about 6 of us got together and actually did hard science on it finally after all these years, I want to say around March or April this year. But that'd be getting off-topic from here.

Don't tease me like that, woman! If you're concerned about derailing the thread, PM it to me, but for the love of god I've been wanting that data since Mini OBT2.
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PostSubject: Re: Sword Drive Selection (Jace)   Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:26 pm

@JadeCicada wrote:
Armor Breaker, despite what the text says, actually can proc on any swing, not just the first. It's pretty noticeable in Haku since you can proc it on the secondary spin or the combo'd spin with your other hand. Works in a arena too - should work as long as it's a subweapon that deals melee type damage.

It procs on any part of the first click from a melee combo, not the entire combo. So quills dagger can proc armor breaker (i called it toughness breaker a few times that's what its called in jp woops) off the first 3 projectiles as well as any hit the projectiles do later when they are spinning but it does not proc off of anything from clicks after the first. Another example is something like eris' combo, she does two sword slashes and then if you don't immediately click again does like an elbow check. All of those will proc armor breaker. But when you press m2 again before the melee combo drops the following hits will not proc armor breaker.


Pls if you are going to hard science anything w/ a group of people pls god figure out how tgh works and how valuable each point of tgh is. It makes my brain hurt anytime I try to do anything tgh related Crying or Very sad
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PostSubject: Re: Sword Drive Selection (Jace)   Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:46 pm

@hannahberry wrote:
It procs on any part of the first click from a melee combo, not the entire combo. So quills dagger can proc armor breaker (i called it toughness breaker a few times that's what its called in jp woops) off the first 3 projectiles as well as any hit the projectiles do later when they are spinning but it does not proc off of anything from clicks after the first. Another example is something like eris' combo, she does two sword slashes and then if you don't immediately click again does like an elbow check. All of those will proc armor breaker. But when you press m2 again before the melee combo drops the following hits will not proc armor breaker.

I just went into Legion with dual combis, before making my earlier post, just in case this behavior changed since I last did stuff a couple months ago. Combination Dagger has a two-part combo - spin, spin. With two, it combos spin, spin -> spin. And since I use MBG as my Haku bot, that'll end with a punch. That's for four clicks. Alternatively as MBG, I can armor purge and then have a 3 click combo with her punches.

I was able to proc Armor Breaker with each click on each combo.

This is also a thing I've had to use to confirm things in the past - there's a bug with Steel Burn AM which I haven't tested in a while, but Armor Breaker refuses to proc on it, period, unless I've got at least one other actual melee subweapon equipped. When testing this, we first did it by attacking with the alternate weapon and comboing into Steel Burn AM, which would eventually proc, but we did later determine that you can proc off of the direct attack anyway. Point is, it's not been limited to the first attack for quite some time.
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PostSubject: Re: Sword Drive Selection (Jace)   Wed Sep 09, 2015 11:35 pm

Yep it's definitely proccing on other hits. I tried this out when it was released and was sure it worked this way and was reaffirmed by watching this video and it never procs on any hits after the first click. Buuut it's from before the one documented change to toughness break (which doesn't list this as an official change iirc, but it's cs lol) so I looked at a more recent one to double check and sure enough it is definitely proccing on hits other than the first.

At least I can be assured life taker is absolute garbage in arena, they are doing insane dps cuz it's haku and on average still not healing that much over time.
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PostSubject: Re: Sword Drive Selection (Jace)   Thu Sep 10, 2015 1:49 pm

Last call, looks like I'm going Meditation/Armor Breaker. I'm not sure how I feel about Meditation, given that the interaction with Assault Step generally leaves me with more than enough boost gauge, but it seems that Lifetaker is a bit too uncertain to try until I have a drive reset to remove it if it is in fact garbage.
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PostSubject: Re: Sword Drive Selection (Jace)   Thu Sep 10, 2015 2:08 pm

Personally, I think Boost or Armor would be better. RNG is dumb.
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PostSubject: Re: Sword Drive Selection (Jace)   Thu Sep 10, 2015 2:40 pm

Ugh, get Armor Breaker and just play? Drive utilities are part of the arena campaign prizes.
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PostSubject: Re: Sword Drive Selection (Jace)   Thu Sep 10, 2015 3:55 pm

@Zwiebel Force wrote:
Ugh, get Armor Breaker and just play? Drive utilities are part of the arena campaign prizes.

That's what I'm going to do.
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PostSubject: Re: Sword Drive Selection (Jace)   Fri Sep 11, 2015 3:31 pm

Doesn't Lifetaker also round down? So once tgh gets your hits under 10 even if it procs you get nothing.
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