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 19/2/2015 New! Union Wars Battle Campaign! Free Battle Garapon Tickets!

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Koiro
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PostSubject: Re: 19/2/2015 New! Union Wars Battle Campaign! Free Battle Garapon Tickets!   Fri Feb 20, 2015 5:03 pm

Do you want 10 problems or 9? 1 less problem can help even a little bit you know
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PostSubject: Re: 19/2/2015 New! Union Wars Battle Campaign! Free Battle Garapon Tickets!   Fri Feb 20, 2015 5:14 pm

from the design standpoint, having 10 things in SS tier is better than having 9 things in SS tier, as players would naturally use SS tier things, so this would open up more top-end variety.
(:
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PostSubject: Re: 19/2/2015 New! Union Wars Battle Campaign! Free Battle Garapon Tickets!   Fri Feb 20, 2015 5:34 pm

Makes sense!
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PostSubject: Re: 19/2/2015 New! Union Wars Battle Campaign! Free Battle Garapon Tickets!   Fri Feb 20, 2015 6:06 pm

@Winty wrote:
from the design standpoint, having 10 things in SS tier is better than having 9 things in SS tier, as players would naturally use SS tier things, so this would open up more top-end variety.
(:

The problem isn't in having a SS-tier, it's in having a SS-tier that's leaps and bounds ahead of literally anything else. I remember back in OBT that Snailbot and Sturbanger were known as shit-tier bots, but at least somebody using them could contribute to the team and possibly get a middling score on the scoreboard. Now if you try to use them, you literally paint a big red sign on your face that says "I'm contributing nothing but points to the enemy team". Even if someone were to take a hyper-tuned Snailbot or Sturbanger and play it 100% perfectly, they would more than likely end up getting auto-kicked by the system at the end of the round just because the potential for scoring well with them is so low. Tbh, I wouldn't be surprised if using anything "fun" or released before 2013 became a bannable offense.

That being said, I'm well aware you're not supposed to bring shitbots into arena. The problem is, as CB's powercreep increases exponentially, more and more bots become classified as "shitbots" just because the opportunity cost of having them on your team is so much higher than in the past. If CS weren't such lazy developers, they could easily fix this problem by nerfing new releases once they are no longer being sold so they fall into place with previous bots' power levels and they don't have to try so hard to power creep new releases. However, CS has consistently taken the approach that they're not going to touch anything involving balance until the game is falling apart and/or people get fed up and the server population takes a nosedive. DAE remember when Tempura said about 2 years ago that they were "looking into" Sturbanger buffs because literally everyone used Sturbanger as the textbook example of a shitbot?

There's something to be said when if a new bot isn't capable of alpha-ing with multiple ~20+ force weapons, nuking with 40+ force weapons, or doing 100+ stunlock melee combos and applying multiple debuffs or self-buffs, it's immediately trash. This whole "tune 500+ HP on your bot or it's garbage" disgusting meta is a direct result of this.
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PostSubject: Re: 19/2/2015 New! Union Wars Battle Campaign! Free Battle Garapon Tickets!   Fri Feb 20, 2015 6:34 pm

"Because it doesn't change much, lets not do it."

Meanwhile, changes to glide boost affects at least 6 bots.

Tiers that are invisible to the game only means how bad the balance is.
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PostSubject: Re: 19/2/2015 New! Union Wars Battle Campaign! Free Battle Garapon Tickets!   Fri Feb 20, 2015 6:34 pm

am I missing something here? Glideboost makes stella op? I got a stella and glideboost kinda sucks. 38 fly and it just makes me not move the way I want to.
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PostSubject: Re: 19/2/2015 New! Union Wars Battle Campaign! Free Battle Garapon Tickets!   Fri Feb 20, 2015 7:03 pm

@RoflWaffle wrote:
asfghre

this is a pretty good summation of what's wrong with CB in general but it's all completely unrelated to the subject at hand.
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PostSubject: Re: 19/2/2015 New! Union Wars Battle Campaign! Free Battle Garapon Tickets!   Fri Feb 20, 2015 8:31 pm

@God is a Cat Girl wrote:
"Because it doesn't change much, lets not do it."
Again, where am I saying anything like this? I'm explicitly stating any balance changes are good, even if their affects are minor.

@God is a Cat Girl wrote:
Meanwhile, changes to glide boost affects at least 6 bots.
And if you make all the best airs in the game worse, it only makes the best lnds better because there are less good airs to kill them and it makes the best arts better because they only have weaker things to prey on. If cyberstep seriously wants to change where the top power level is they HAVE to nerf a lot of things together or whatever they ignore is even stronger relative to what's left.

I disagree that glide boost is even the problem with airs anyway (protip it's extended boost in general, but the 2 together is especially nasty)

@God is a Cat Girl wrote:
Tiers that are invisible to the game only means how bad the balance is.
Ya this game is balanced like shit and it's always been balanced like shit. There have been really shit and really strong robots since the game was made e.g. a few months after release dbmg/kshield hoppers/lily rain eve were miles ahead of their competition. That's just how the game has always been idk why it's relevant.

@chengsta wrote:

am I missing something here? Glideboost makes stella op? I got a stella and glideboost kinda sucks. 38 fly and it just makes me not move the way I want to.
Glide boost takes some getting used to but once you get a feel for it you can avoid projectiles like you can with normal flying while also being able to maintain the facing you want, letting you dodge and shoot people at the same time. It's really good vs anything homing or anything with low speed or at longer ranges. It also moves a bit faster than 38 fly and has a tiny invuln frame on the beginning, it's pretty good but uses around x2 as much boost as normal flying ^_^
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PostSubject: Re: 19/2/2015 New! Union Wars Battle Campaign! Free Battle Garapon Tickets!   Fri Feb 20, 2015 8:58 pm

I refrain of giving my opinion because some people will defend retarded mechanics to the end

Oh, I gave my opinion anyway.
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PostSubject: Re: 19/2/2015 New! Union Wars Battle Campaign! Free Battle Garapon Tickets!   Fri Feb 20, 2015 9:26 pm

Vanilla Ragna (No other non-ragna parts except for ACs) for all your AIR problems. My only real problem with it is if the AIR is accompanied by a LND but welp he's an ART and getting aimed at by more than 1 enemy is asking for trouble.

I'm trying to work on Victory 1 with Artilus BLAST parts but I need to finish tuning its WLK before I can say it can swat flies.
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PostSubject: Re: 19/2/2015 New! Union Wars Battle Campaign! Free Battle Garapon Tickets!   Fri Feb 20, 2015 9:55 pm

@bippusuta wrote:
I disagree that glide boost is even the problem with airs anyway (protip it's extended boost in general, but the 2 together is especially nasty)

you have actually said to me that airs are the best type in the game because they get glide boost.

Honestly the issue is that glide boost allows airs to do things that I feel they shouldn't do, which is maintain harassment without caring what is shooting at them because glide boost airs can ignore 70% of projectiles fired at them.
Without glide boost, airs have either long range harassment(mialy A, overranged armada arms/crystas parts/steel burn missile/etc) or close range burst that is limited to aggressive lands/anyone who is trying to poke. Removing glide boost forces them to be aware of their surroundings rather than just waltz through teams like you and most stellas that have copied your build do, completely ignoring what they are up against and removing the interactive factor from the game and just making it a farming simulator. (personally I don't see how you people can stand playing a game like that but that's just me, it seems like the most boring thing to do and why I hardly play stella and refuse to copy that build.)

There are problems with artillery, but they are much different and lie with damage numbers(very high damage numbers on things that aren't even 100% blast, so that even with blast guard you take large amounts of damage from artillery, even at close ranges) and counter abilities(anti-CV knockbacks, escapes that cannot be baited by smart play in any way, etc). Honestly making glide boost airs less retarded wouldn't really change these issues.

As for lands, the same thing can be said. Making it so that glide boost airs can't walk through teams has zero effect on airs ability to destroy lands. The best anti-land air doesn't even have glide boost, and if it did, it's ability to ruin melee rushes wouldn't be affected because it's not going to die to melee.

All in all, I don't think a nerf to glide boost will cause major changes to the power of the other types, based on what their strengths and weaknesses are right now.
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PostSubject: Re: 19/2/2015 New! Union Wars Battle Campaign! Free Battle Garapon Tickets!   Fri Feb 20, 2015 10:13 pm

Bippu is just a birdy
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PostSubject: Re: 19/2/2015 New! Union Wars Battle Campaign! Free Battle Garapon Tickets!   Fri Feb 20, 2015 11:21 pm

@Winty wrote:
@colfenor1337 wrote:
Just wanna add my honest opinion....at least stella doesn't have homing weapon ヽ(*≧ω≦)ノ

if she had homing weapon I could just AH through her shit.
homing weapons are a weakness, folks.

I was implementing that it'll take more effort to aim..wait to gid gud with the auto-aim assist..Am I saying this right? Laughing

No srsly I feel a lot better using Stella as a practice for non-homing air attack owob
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PostSubject: Re: 19/2/2015 New! Union Wars Battle Campaign! Free Battle Garapon Tickets!   Sat Feb 21, 2015 12:34 am

lol well imo she's not really a problem(she's a pain the arse though if it's 1 on 1)


Well maybe because I rarely see them on arena as an enemy.. when its air it's always frac girl, theia and crystas AM
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PostSubject: Re: 19/2/2015 New! Union Wars Battle Campaign! Free Battle Garapon Tickets!   Sat Feb 21, 2015 12:40 am

@Winty wrote:
you have actually said to me that airs are the best type in the game because they get glide boost.

Yep I remember and I have since changed my position on it. I think it's important to remember that glide boost uses more boost than normal flying. ~7 seconds (due to downtime between glide boosts) is a very short amount of time for airs to be flying around if they want to be continually glide boosting (which you do). But all(?) the airs that have glide boost also have strong boost refills and/or decrease boost consumption! And it's my opinion that the real problem lies with extended boost, boost refills, prop buffs without bits that can be destroyed, and boost steal rather than glide boost. It's those mechanics that really break the traditional air gameplay. The kinds of things I do on stella would be absolutely impossible if it wasn't backed up by the almost 2 minutes of uninterrupted flying she gets from her boost refills. If you gave some mecha air glide boost and stuck ilgryps arms on it there is no way it'd be able to do anything near what stella does because it'd be landing to recharge boost every 10 seconds.

I played the last-gen equivalent of stella, ilgryps am2 + tieroge amj, quite a bit and prior to the amj nerfchange it was just the same shit, fly forever due to ridiculous boost steal and do w/e I wanted but with air loop instead of glide boost. Just as a little thought experiment, if there were two airs that are identical in every way but one has 2 minutes boost extend and the other has glide boost and I was asked to pick one to play, I'd take the 2 minutes of flying with no hesitation. It's these kinds of realizations that made me change my mind about glide boost.

If CS ever wanted to seriously nerf stella my suggestion would be to make the prop buff given by her reignition weaker (like the buff prop bits give on flapjack rather than the extra strong one it has now) and increase its cooldown to the point where you can't use them in sequence with no downtime.

I won't deny that I like glide boost or that it's really good, I think it's fun and it rewards player skill a lot better than accele roll or air loop, both for the player using it and the person shooting them. Extended boost mechanics just come in and make all the airs with them super stupid compared to airs without them.

@Winty wrote:
artillery and lands

Maybe I exaggerated a bit, but any nerf to airs will cause a shift to other things. If airs are less mobile due to no glide boost (or extended boost like I'd prefer to see) you'd end up with airs dying faster or having to waste more time healing/playing conservatively because arts have an easier time killing them, which lets melees live longer and do more. And since eris/homura/etc are the queens of those types they'd benefit the most from any air changes.
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PostSubject: Re: 19/2/2015 New! Union Wars Battle Campaign! Free Battle Garapon Tickets!   Sat Feb 21, 2015 1:06 am

Damn there goes my no moe rule I actually like using momiji even have her stupid card :v.
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PostSubject: Re: 19/2/2015 New! Union Wars Battle Campaign! Free Battle Garapon Tickets!   Sat Feb 21, 2015 1:08 am

glideboost doesn't work when you're being shot at from the sides.  All it did for me was take more boost and made my flight uncontrollable.  It's not even fast.  It's like I'm just strafing sideways at the same speed.  I wouldn't be affected by a glideboost nerf.  While they're at it though, they can go ahead and nerf/remove air loop from berz girl.  That makes her weak because when i'm trying to chase with her, she airloops and all the boost is gone Mad
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PostSubject: Re: 19/2/2015 New! Union Wars Battle Campaign! Free Battle Garapon Tickets!   Sat Feb 21, 2015 3:04 am

what it really comes down to is the synergy. Glide boost without a reboost ability isn't that useful because you don't get the ability to abuse it, but if you have reboost/boost steal you do not get the same power the glide boost gives. It's as simple as, glide boost airs have the ability to fly through bullets, and when you give them the ability to spam this move, in any fashion(i have propeller bits on my stella so I don't constantly burn through reboost ammo to use glide boost) it becomes problematic. Even though you can kill prop bits, it's still not something that's easy to do, and it's not something that is "hard" to do either - there are simply weapons that won't hit glide boost, and weapons that will, in the same way that anti-homing airs like monica could ruin homing artillery, except it's a much worse problem because glide boost invalidates a lot more options. It's not uncommon to have a match where you have 3 glide boost airs circling a spawn point being immune to ranged weapons where I'm just trying to play music and nobody on my team can do anything about them.

Obviously there is an answer of "Weapons should be scaled up to be able to hit glide boost spam" but that basically means that while mashing glide boost stops being effective, airs without glide boost are suddenly extremely crippled even moreso than they already are. Playing something without a mobility cart is already extremely hard with the massive power artillery have.

Glide boost is certainly the problem. Boost gauge extension is simply an enabler, if you change it people will find other ways to enable to the same abuse, because the abuse will still exist and be the goal to strive for, unless you make it so that abuse simply cannot exist.

Calling glide boost a skillful interaction is laughable.
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PostSubject: Re: 19/2/2015 New! Union Wars Battle Campaign! Free Battle Garapon Tickets!   Sat Feb 21, 2015 3:24 am

glide boost = trick to evade missile's with 38 fly speed to increase glide animation.

need more perse shade super track to drop air's anyone ???
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PostSubject: Re: 19/2/2015 New! Union Wars Battle Campaign! Free Battle Garapon Tickets!   Sat Feb 21, 2015 4:52 am

The only way I see glide boost skilled is for manimo g, it lets her to chase airs and troll them. All melee airs should have it making them not shitty to use. Now all non melee airs that have it is braking game, if u want to kill motherfucker that uses glide boost u must use top grade arts that have insane homing ex:homo,persi,miruru,bikini lily... Like some random ass stella or thea decides to fuck with my TBG and fly above my all day long spamming glide boost. I just cant do shit to it event if I hit her multiple times with that new zook that shots projecticles like berz that does 40~75 dmg if u have 40tech (the 165 cost one forgot the name) it doesn't force them to fuck off. Only if team is backing up you. Im not even gonna talk about other arts that dont have enough homing or speed to hit them. The other most retarded thing u can chase very fast lands that have like 40wlk just my spamming glide boost and reboost. And that changes thing a lost I personally dont see any point of tuning my arts more than 30wlk or lands more than 36wlk if some dum air bitch decides to chase you there is little u can do, just better try do do max dmg u can.

Winty u ask why people play the game its simple cards event. If there is no events on, there are barely any people to fill 1 uw room 15v15. And I personally don't see any other point to play the game other than the event. If I play TBG (my favorite bot) some try hard moron comes and ruin my day like stella or thea doing the thing I mentioned before. It makes me MAD dying to some fucking slut that spam glide boost or lag loop.
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PostSubject: Re: 19/2/2015 New! Union Wars Battle Campaign! Free Battle Garapon Tickets!   Sat Feb 21, 2015 5:05 am

@+RedCobra+ wrote:
glide boost = trick to evade missile's with 38 fly speed to increase glide animation.

need more perse shade super track to drop air's anyone ???

You must be really bad at pressing spacebar to get hit by those....
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PostSubject: Re: 19/2/2015 New! Union Wars Battle Campaign! Free Battle Garapon Tickets!   Sat Feb 21, 2015 5:12 am

@Winty wrote:
@RoflWaffle wrote:
asfghre

this is a pretty good summation of what's wrong with CB in general but it's all completely unrelated to the subject at hand.

It's not completely unrelated. If you're all going to have a hypothetical discussion about CS nerfing meta bots/glide boost I might as well highlight other problematic areas. People are discussing glide boost nerfs when it's only a survivability tool for already-overpowered bots to use. You can use a bot with as much mobility and survivability as you want but if it has no dps potential it's going to be useless.
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PostSubject: Re: 19/2/2015 New! Union Wars Battle Campaign! Free Battle Garapon Tickets!   Sat Feb 21, 2015 6:31 am

@EvilPotato wrote:
If I play TBG (my favorite bot) some try hard moron comes and ruin my day like stella or thea doing the thing I mentioned before. It makes me MAD dying to some fucking slut that spam glide boost or lag loop.

you say this but you are the same piece of shit with homura/resha, and yet you are mad about stella and theia?
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PostSubject: Re: 19/2/2015 New! Union Wars Battle Campaign! Free Battle Garapon Tickets!   Sat Feb 21, 2015 10:48 am

@thehellamireading wrote:
@EvilPotato wrote:
If I play TBG (my favorite bot) some try hard moron comes and ruin my day like stella or thea doing the thing I mentioned before. It makes me MAD dying to some fucking slut that spam glide boost or lag loop.

you say this but you are the same piece of shit with homura/resha, and yet you are mad about stella and theia?

Im piece of shit? U little whore should I chase you with my stella and thea to show u how broken it is?
Bitching about my homura and resha, I got full right to play what ever I want it's not my fault cyberstep fail at balancing it's shit. If u have a problem with me pm in game and will beat the shit out of you 1v1 u little window licking imbecile.
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PostSubject: Re: 19/2/2015 New! Union Wars Battle Campaign! Free Battle Garapon Tickets!   Sat Feb 21, 2015 11:53 am

Being in DOS is an embarassment.
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