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 Let's talk about the beginner ruleset

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Winty
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PostSubject: Let's talk about the beginner ruleset   Mon Sep 29, 2014 3:11 pm

I meant to make this after the last clan fight, but I got distracted by...other things.

Anyway, I want put forward the question: What IS beginner ruleset?

The answer will vary from person to person. I want to know what everyone thinks the purpose of it is. Because your view of the purpose of it changes what you think should or shouldn't be allowed. As such, to have an actual discussion of what should be allowed, we should know what people want/expect the ruleset to be.

For me, beginner ruleset is a simpler arena before it's anything else. One without rampant out of place debuffs and superarmor and all the other things that get tacked on to every random thing that is released these days. The power of things should be slightly lower overall, because the counter system is different when you can't just slow turn/shock/disorder/freeze whatever a strong unit to make it stop killing you.

That's my take on it.

As such, I think the following currently allowed things should be removed.

1. Buff Devestator.

above all, this NEEDS to go. Lingering, instant AoE heal fields existing in normal arenas are already bad enough, there's no reason for them to be in beginner. I'd HONESTLY be fine with them allowing the original reginas(to be the slow heal counterpart to original melfi's instant heal) but buff devestator shouldn't exist in beginner rooms at all.

2. nothing
3. nothing
4. nothing

5. Shino Exline AMs
I put three spaces to show how much of an issue buff devestator is. Exline is something I only use in beginner clan fights, because it's simply unfair. Honestly, I think that all boost steal should be removed from the ruleset, regardless of power, for the reasons I stated in my introduction.

6. Lightning cannon/mod + Charged beam cannon
two extremely abusable weapons. CBC is a hard hitting, large AoE air weapon that exists to nuke healgroups and make lands cry. It's not something that really needs to exist, as it was designed to be used in the standard ruleset, and is completely out of place in beginner rooms. LC/M, while lacking in AoE, makes alpha builds extremely dominant, and even as a single weapon outputs DPS in excess of what is standard.

7. Kisaragi Anko BD
I don't think we need GV knockups in beginner rules. She's also an amazing pump baz carrier, which is a very questionable weapon as well.

8. Assault piercegun mod
Whitelisting error. Normal version is banned. The long range piercing weapons really shouldn't be in, and most of them aren't in. There's a few weaker, short range ones that exist(connie, shino) but those are a different story than this.

I feel these are the 5 most problematic things right now. Looking to hear what other people think.
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reVelske
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PostSubject: Re: Let's talk about the beginner ruleset   Mon Sep 29, 2014 3:18 pm

All Pierces, all Estes, all Lightning Cannons, Pump Baz, Muchi, Genbu, Buff Dev, POSSIBLY Titan Baz.

Things that IMHO should not be there.
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Winty
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PostSubject: Re: Let's talk about the beginner ruleset   Mon Sep 29, 2014 3:25 pm

why
i'm more interested on hearing your thoughts on what the ruleset should be, rather than what should or shouldn't be allowed.
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PostSubject: Re: Let's talk about the beginner ruleset   Mon Sep 29, 2014 3:43 pm

Well, I envision it to be a fairly balanced room where vast majority of the available options aren't gara-gated, those that are should be on more or less equal footing to the readily available stuff.

Those things I listed are several levels above the rest IMHO.
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AnTi90d
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PostSubject: Re: Let's talk about the beginner ruleset   Mon Sep 29, 2014 4:01 pm

I don't disagree with anything stated, thus far. I see BR matches as being less stressful and, usually, more fun than regular arena. Status effects are usually kept to a minimum.. except for slow tuned melees.. movement parts are almost all excluded (BackBoost LGJ is allowed.. but, good luck finding those,) Railguns are still relevant.. healing isn't as brainless or as fruitful as normal arena and not many things break the holy circle of who eats who.

My list to remove from BR:

- Buff Devastator
- LCMs
- BackBoost LGJ
- Anko
- melee slow tunes
- single target, vanilla Illumis (even though I never see her in there.. she doesn't belong)
- Laz sleigh

My list to include in BR:

- Priestol G
- Reginas (except the ones with shock.. CR has it.. IDK if any others do)
- the aura Vector (his core weapon sucks)
- more cores and weapons that I can't remember off the top of my head but are rarely seen in regular arena.. just so we have greater variety.. A lot of recent silvers aren't allowed, even though they aren't gamebreaking or very strong.
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PostSubject: Re: Let's talk about the beginner ruleset   Mon Sep 29, 2014 4:03 pm

THEY SHOULD UNBAN ACCESSORIES !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Why shouldn't shock be available in beginner ruleset? I don't understand why.
Melfi frost should be allowed ;_;


Last edited by Princess on Mon Sep 29, 2014 4:05 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Let's talk about the beginner ruleset   Mon Sep 29, 2014 4:04 pm

yeah banning accessories are fucking dumb
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AnTi90d
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PostSubject: Re: Let's talk about the beginner ruleset   Mon Sep 29, 2014 4:14 pm

If you allow more shock like Shock Bazookas and moes with shock attacks, that will change the BR meta. Everyone will bring shock and then there won't be any melee lands and then there won't be anything for airs to shoot and then we're back to Art Wall: The Game.
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reVelske
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PostSubject: Re: Let's talk about the beginner ruleset   Mon Sep 29, 2014 4:15 pm

Sanae's Headdress is too OP.

So is Fireflower R apparently.
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Winty
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PostSubject: Re: Let's talk about the beginner ruleset   Mon Sep 29, 2014 4:16 pm

shock is allowed, on bugsy arm.
melee is really iffy to begin with in beginners, allowing strong counters like shock is super silly when things like old winberyls with bind traps already shut down most of them pretty hard if they let it happen.
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PostSubject: Re: Let's talk about the beginner ruleset   Mon Sep 29, 2014 4:20 pm

Bugsy arm is OK because it's risky to even use. I think Squidol Whip is also allowed.. which is equally as risky. To apply shock, you have to hug the Ouka/Aila/lagkun.. and probably get hit a time or two.

Shock Bazookas allow shock to be applied from a safe distance. I'm very happy that they aren't in BR.
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AhegaoMaster
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PostSubject: Re: Let's talk about the beginner ruleset   Mon Sep 29, 2014 4:25 pm

Also cupid BS should be allowed, and the nooby BS we got from the ticket legion campaign.
My biggest thing is just unbanning accessories its ridiculous. I think they should ban katalina, and
CV from beginner ruleset
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PostSubject: Re: Let's talk about the beginner ruleset   Mon Sep 29, 2014 4:28 pm

They removed am3 but they allowed something even more overpowered, lel

- Katalina builds are unfair in that mode, specially alpha Katas
- Ion; we discussed this before, but she's way too good for that mode. In fact, I use her there to counter... airs
- That SDC-like weapon that spreads on hit. Fuck that shit
- Aila, but that's just my grain of salt

They should allow Vanilla Squidol Gurl, I don't see a reason why she is banned
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AhegaoMaster
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PostSubject: Re: Let's talk about the beginner ruleset   Mon Sep 29, 2014 4:30 pm

@zerocl wrote:
They removed am3 but they allowed something even more overpowered, lel

- Katalina builds are unfair in that mode, specially alpha Katas
- Ion; we discussed this before, but she's way too good for that mode. In fact, I use her there to counter... airs
- That SDC-like weapon that spreads on hit. Fuck that shit
- Aila, but that's just my grain of salt

They should allow Vanilla Squidol Gurl, I don't see a reason why she is banned

Bruh, original ion what the fuck? I mean aila is th eonly good beginner ruleset bot I have thats actually decent
aila compared to pro clans beginner ruleset bots is yeah lets not go there.
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PostSubject: Re: Let's talk about the beginner ruleset   Mon Sep 29, 2014 4:35 pm

Ion is pretty dumb in that mode, everyone knows this
Aoe+dumb damage to everything, stats, etc.
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PostSubject: Re: Let's talk about the beginner ruleset   Mon Sep 29, 2014 4:37 pm

Beginners is a nice side mode that strips away all the really anti-fun mechanics they have been adding to the game, like forced stuns and status spam. Beside the obvious outlier of buff devastator nothing else really needs changing. K-shield force barrier hoppers using bazooka or ballista mod are king in this mode already imo (even though no one seems to play them...) and taking away the better air and art options would only further cement it. Anko is actually a decent implementation of bounce stuns with her slow and easy to see missiles, but her upcoming buffs might change that though. CBC is the only thing that feels out of place besides buff devastator, but its also the only thing that can semi consistently beat force barrier hoppers so maybe I'm biased...
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PostSubject: Re: Let's talk about the beginner ruleset   Mon Sep 29, 2014 4:40 pm

Y booty devastator allowed and not baby trinana
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PostSubject: Re: Let's talk about the beginner ruleset   Mon Sep 29, 2014 4:47 pm

Most non-Accel M-lnd cores are quite mediocre, regardless of how damn good Ballista Mod is. And they can be shut down reasonably well by LBaz and SDC.
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PostSubject: Re: Let's talk about the beginner ruleset   Mon Sep 29, 2014 4:57 pm

Princess wrote:
Y booty  devastator allowed and not baby trinana
because Trin's actually much stronger
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PostSubject: Re: Let's talk about the beginner ruleset   Mon Sep 29, 2014 5:03 pm

I think Shino AC should be banned. She is the land trial queen. Built in Force Barrier, piercegun, possibly two kshields as well as a possible large hp pool is pretty ridiculous.

unban eques though
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PostSubject: Re: Let's talk about the beginner ruleset   Mon Sep 29, 2014 5:05 pm

ANALIZER FROM SHOP SHOULD BE ALLOWED.
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PostSubject: Re: Let's talk about the beginner ruleset   Mon Sep 29, 2014 5:13 pm

Princess wrote:
ANALIZER FROM SHOP SHOULD BE ALLOWED.

..and Alcy from shop should be removed.
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PostSubject: Re: Let's talk about the beginner ruleset   Mon Sep 29, 2014 5:22 pm

@AnTi90d wrote:
Princess wrote:
ANALIZER FROM SHOP SHOULD BE ALLOWED.

..and Alcy from shop should be removed.
vanessa should be removed no one cares about alcy
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PostSubject: Re: Let's talk about the beginner ruleset   Mon Sep 29, 2014 7:37 pm

@Winty wrote:
1. Buff Devestator.

above all, this NEEDS to go. Lingering, instant AoE heal fields existing in normal arenas are already bad enough, there's no reason for them to be in beginner. I'd HONESTLY be fine with them allowing the original reginas(to be the slow heal counterpart to original melfi's instant heal) but buff devestator shouldn't exist in beginner rooms at all.


6. Lightning cannon/mod + Charged beam cannon
two extremely abusable weapons. CBC is a hard hitting, large AoE air weapon that exists to nuke healgroups and make lands cry. It's not something that really needs to exist, as it was designed to be used in the standard ruleset, and is completely out of place in beginner rooms. LC/M, while lacking in AoE, makes alpha builds extremely dominant, and even as a single weapon outputs DPS in excess of what is standard.

These two I extreme agree after several thinkings. On CBC part, which I tried Dual CBC with Pacifar BD on Beginner Ruleset Room, constantly DPSed out and left out small AoE trap upon hoppers and annoyed the shit out of ground units a lot. Although this tactic is only viable on Beginner Ruleset imo.
Not to mention, cooldown bypassing glitch exists with Dual CBC, which makes DPS even stronger, but should be aware that you will be shooting non-charged bullet constantly.

For LCM, This thing shouldn't be even on from start. What's the difference of this ridiculous thing compare to Ilgryps AM 2 or 3(which is defected version) on shooting wise? LCM basically allowed Katagryps to be around at Beginner Ruleset.

Even though ART weapons are buffed(which should've been done), there are plenty of AIR weaponry and unit to DPS out of LND or ground units.(i.e. Falke Armor, buffed PBC, LL Plasma Gun, Katalina BD, Tonitrus BD, Seiron HD, etc...)

For Buff Devastor, whatelse is needed to say? Just DEATH TO THE BUBBLE HEALERS


Last edited by aosepsa on Mon Sep 29, 2014 8:03 pm; edited 4 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: Let's talk about the beginner ruleset   Mon Sep 29, 2014 7:41 pm

i don't see a reason to remove any melee in beginner ruleset. None of them are really game-breaking from what I've seen.
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